Following is a somewhat poetic, decidedly harsh indictment of the world’s loquacious guides to salvation. Titled World Over-heard, it was submitted to a forum known as "The Living Waters Message Board" in 2001.
No more words! Too long have flicks and drippings of tongues disserved as wispish proxies for solutions to heart-rending sorrows; promissory pacifiers assuring that miraculous play in fields of light is as near as the days of heaven. Too long have I accepted the currency of purposes, intents, promises, and ‘knowing’ as the medium of exchange, knowing well that weight, substance, and luster render action the basis for the gold standard in this world crying out for golden threads of life-essential light. It is time to pay up in precious nuggets. Enough of “Christ will come again, the meek shall inherit the earth, and then shall we know heaven; but in the meantime, please sit back and enjoy another episode of ‘As the world burns’’’. Enough of hope! Enough of belief! Enough of self-anesthetizing words! Please, Sir, just shut up; shut up and deliver the action – the action of intelligence... now.
– Joe
Below is an exchange in connection with the foregoing post.
Joe, I can't tell if you're trying to sound cleverly skeptical or are genuinely confused and troubled. Either way, I'm sorry to "hear" the hostility and misunderstanding on your part. I don't think you've had enough of hope or belief yet, it sounds like you could use a good dose of both. I do hope you are more open to truth than your message suggests, and that you are given an opportunity to come to terms with what is real and what matters.
–CFry
C, I can see how it might appear that my intent was to appear cleverly skeptical, but that was not my purpose. Yes, I am deeply troubled. Confused? – It would be best if you decided this. If you’ve retained interest, please see:
– Joe
Below is an exchange in connection with the foregoing post.
Joe, I can't tell if you're trying to sound cleverly skeptical or are genuinely confused and troubled. Either way, I'm sorry to "hear" the hostility and misunderstanding on your part. I don't think you've had enough of hope or belief yet, it sounds like you could use a good dose of both. I do hope you are more open to truth than your message suggests, and that you are given an opportunity to come to terms with what is real and what matters.
–CFry
C, I can see how it might appear that my intent was to appear cleverly skeptical, but that was not my purpose. Yes, I am deeply troubled. Confused? – It would be best if you decided this. If you’ve retained interest, please see:
http://members.boardhost.com/Galaxey/index.html#mb
It appears that I’ve over-submitted my initial post by entering it at several boards, anticipating one or two responses at most. I apologize.
– Joe
Joe, I read your reply on the other message board, in which you describe a rapturous, ecstatic experience twenty some years ago. It seems unfortunate to have had an experience that you look back on after many years as a pinnacle event in your life when you almost had a grasp on something great and harmonious. I do not envy your perception of the significance of that moment in time, for as long as you cling to it you can only return empty and unsatisfied to the way things really are.
It appears that I’ve over-submitted my initial post by entering it at several boards, anticipating one or two responses at most. I apologize.
– Joe
Joe, I read your reply on the other message board, in which you describe a rapturous, ecstatic experience twenty some years ago. It seems unfortunate to have had an experience that you look back on after many years as a pinnacle event in your life when you almost had a grasp on something great and harmonious. I do not envy your perception of the significance of that moment in time, for as long as you cling to it you can only return empty and unsatisfied to the way things really are.
2 Cor 12:1-10
12:1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows. 3And I know that this man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows- 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
NIV
–CFry
12:1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows. 3And I know that this man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows- 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
NIV
–CFry
C, In this, there is no confusion. There is nothing in ‘what is’ to be grasped, as to grasp is to become attached, and thus, to become disengaged from the action that is life. An event is not important in its capacity to overshadow that which is to come. Its significance is its transformative action, nothing more. One must not mistake citation for fixation.
–Joe
No, Joe, "to grasp" isn't to become attached, it is to comprehend, to understand. You say that the experience you cited has significance in "its transformative action, nothing more." Yet, when you wrote about this on the other board you used phrases like:
"The most meaningful experience of my life occurred at the age of 25..."
"In those fleeting moments I lived and understood more than in the entirety of my life prior and since (I’m 47 years of age)."
"In the years since, it has become painfully clear..."
"We are wasting precious life."
"But this is mere knowledge, and knowing is not the same as understanding..."
Tell me again that there is no confusion, and that there is no fixation, as your words lead me to a different conclusion. The description of your "experience" and the aftermath does not conform to your assertions. You also confuse feelings with knowledge. Your transitory feelings will betray you and leave you in despair without answers, whereas genuine knowledge will inform and equip you for decisions and action.
grasp v. grasped, grasp·ing, grasps. 3. To take hold of intellectually; comprehend. (The American Heritage Dictionary)
1 Corinthians 14:11
If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. NIV
–Joe
No, Joe, "to grasp" isn't to become attached, it is to comprehend, to understand. You say that the experience you cited has significance in "its transformative action, nothing more." Yet, when you wrote about this on the other board you used phrases like:
"The most meaningful experience of my life occurred at the age of 25..."
"In those fleeting moments I lived and understood more than in the entirety of my life prior and since (I’m 47 years of age)."
"In the years since, it has become painfully clear..."
"We are wasting precious life."
"But this is mere knowledge, and knowing is not the same as understanding..."
Tell me again that there is no confusion, and that there is no fixation, as your words lead me to a different conclusion. The description of your "experience" and the aftermath does not conform to your assertions. You also confuse feelings with knowledge. Your transitory feelings will betray you and leave you in despair without answers, whereas genuine knowledge will inform and equip you for decisions and action.
grasp v. grasped, grasp·ing, grasps. 3. To take hold of intellectually; comprehend. (The American Heritage Dictionary)
1 Corinthians 14:11
If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. NIV
Eph 3:14-21
For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge-that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
NIV
For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge-that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
NIV
– CFry
Yes, C, indeed grasp means to comprehend, to understand. And if that was your intent when you noted that
“It seems unfortunate to have had an experience that you look back on after many years as a pinnacle event in your life when you almost had a grasp on something great and harmonious”
I won’t quibble. But please, endure my wish to convey another meaning, viz., to hold, to control. It was in this light, and with respect to the foregoing sentence that I took, or mistook your application of the word. It has been my custom to say ‘grasp of’ when meaning understanding, ‘grasp on’ when implying to hold in the sense of containing, restraining, or controlling. Meanings are easily mistaken.
CFry: You say that the experience you cited has significance in “its transformative action, nothing more." Yet, when you wrote about this on the other board you used phrases like:
"The most meaningful experience of my life occurred at the age of 25..."
"In those fleeting moments I lived and understood more than in the entirety of my life prior and since (I’m 47 years of age)."
"In the years since, it has become painfully clear..."
"We are wasting precious life."
"But this is mere knowledge, and knowing is not the same as understanding..."
Tell me again that there is no confusion, and that there is no fixation, as your words lead me to a different conclusion.
"In those fleeting moments I lived and understood more than in the entirety of my life prior and since (I’m 47 years of age)."
"In the years since, it has become painfully clear..."
"We are wasting precious life."
"But this is mere knowledge, and knowing is not the same as understanding..."
Tell me again that there is no confusion, and that there is no fixation, as your words lead me to a different conclusion.
Joe: Then I shall try to explain. An event has significance – meaning, when it is one of action in the stream of life; when the sense of separation from that which we feel as being ‘out there’ ceases. The psychological sense of space, time, observer and observed is now meaningless. One has become the action, the action of life itself. This is the ground of transformation. It is with this in mind that I note that the experience of that 25 year-old was his most meaningful. Yet, I should note that there have been other ‘frolics’ in the stream, just none so profoundly affecting. But, it is essential that I relate that these moments of clarity do not, nor can they ever, arise from fixation, purpose, method, desire, obsession, concentration, purpose, or any other ‘vehicle’ directed toward that end. Truth is pathless.
CFry: “The description of your "experience" and the aftermath does not conform to your assertions.”
Joe: Please, C, explain how this is so and I shall try to clear up any misunderstanding.
CFry: “You also confuse feelings with knowledge.”
Joe: I’m not clear on this. Perhaps you are alluding to my statement that ends:
We are wasting precious life. But this is mere knowledge, and knowing is not the same as understanding...
What was meant by this is simply that the assertion was coming from the known, from memory, and not from engagement; that is, not from the profound and immediate sense of the crisis that it truly is.
CFry: “Your transitory feelings will betray you and leave you in despair without answers, whereas genuine knowledge will inform and equip you for decisions and action.”
Joe: C, I am not your enemy, nor am I an adversary of truth. I sense that some of our differences arise from differing perspectives on the meanings of the words being used. But, if you feel that it runs much more deeply, and you think it worthwhile, then let us confront it head on. If you are right and I am lost in confusion, then your counsel will not have been for naught.
CFry: “Your transitory feelings will betray you and leave you in despair without answers, whereas genuine knowledge will inform and equip you for decisions and action.”
Joe: C, I am not your enemy, nor am I an adversary of truth. I sense that some of our differences arise from differing perspectives on the meanings of the words being used. But, if you feel that it runs much more deeply, and you think it worthwhile, then let us confront it head on. If you are right and I am lost in confusion, then your counsel will not have been for naught.
Thank you.
– Joe
Joe, I mean no disrespect but you seem to use a lot of words to avoid clear communication. Language is not a mystery, it is a means of sharing information, but with effort we can make it seem mysterious by investing personal coding and nonstandard meanings in standard words. The net effect is a hindrance to mutual understanding, the very function of language.
When you say that "truth is pathless" you seem to be saying, in the preceding words, that insights into meaning or existence come about through no personal investment or choice, no effort or pursuit on the part of the student. I completely disagree, and say again that such a perspective can only lead to disappointment, frustration and despair. Truth is apprehendable, it can be pursued, learned, and built upon. Insights into value and meaning come through seeking knowledge, particularly of God, who has revealed himself in meaningful language in the text of the Bible, not through capricious experiences in unexpected moments of unaccountable ecstasy.
Psalms 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth; I have set my heart on your laws.
Joe, I mean no disrespect but you seem to use a lot of words to avoid clear communication. Language is not a mystery, it is a means of sharing information, but with effort we can make it seem mysterious by investing personal coding and nonstandard meanings in standard words. The net effect is a hindrance to mutual understanding, the very function of language.
When you say that "truth is pathless" you seem to be saying, in the preceding words, that insights into meaning or existence come about through no personal investment or choice, no effort or pursuit on the part of the student. I completely disagree, and say again that such a perspective can only lead to disappointment, frustration and despair. Truth is apprehendable, it can be pursued, learned, and built upon. Insights into value and meaning come through seeking knowledge, particularly of God, who has revealed himself in meaningful language in the text of the Bible, not through capricious experiences in unexpected moments of unaccountable ecstasy.
Proverbs 23:23
Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline and understanding.
Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline and understanding.
Ps 119:33 Teach me, O LORD, to follow your decrees; then I will keep them to the end.
Ps 119:34 Give me understanding, and I will keep your law and obey it with all my heart.
2 Corinthians 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. NIV
– CFry
C, avoiding clear communication has never been my purpose in this discussion. But, if I have failed to convey my meaning, perhaps there is an alternative explanation. Possibly, wittingly or unwittingly, you’ve become genuinely disinterested, even afraid to step away from that which you believe just long enough to learn the meanings behind the words, to examine matters from a different and unfamiliar perspective. Perhaps you are contented with your life, oblivious to the truth that you are the world, a world crying out for immediate solutions, a world ablaze. I sensed that I’d lost you from the outset when I said “Enough of ‘Christ will come again, the meek shall inherit the earth, and then shall we know heaven…’” Maybe I should have noted that in the teachings attributed to Christ I have found profound meaning and beauty; that it is the peripheral commentary – the interpretations that I have generally found to be misguided. But, I suspect this would not have helped matters.
CFry: “When you say that "truth is pathless" you seem to be saying, in the preceding words, that insights into meaning or existence come about through no personal investment or choice, no effort or pursuit on the part of the student. Truth is apprehendable, it can be pursued, learned, and built upon. Insights into value and meaning come through seeking knowledge, particularly of God, who has revealed himself in meaningful language in the text of the Bible, not through capricious experiences in unexpected moments of unaccountable ecstasy.”
Joe: What I am saying is that truth, reality, what is, or whatever label one applies, is realized simply – no investment, no preparation, no schooling, no gurus, no initiation, no ‘winding up for the pitch’ required. It is as near as breathing, as conspicuous as the words you are reading, as accessible as life itself.
C, it is clear from your responses that my writing has served only to annoy or perhaps even anger you. I can understand this. I have entered your ‘realm’ and spouted ‘heresy’. I take no pleasure in the misery of another. I won’t disturb you again. Besides, wasn’t it me who said ‘No more words!’? Goodbye, and best wishes in your pursuit of truth.
– Joe
Joe, there has been neither anger nor annoyance in my responses to you, only an attempt to speak directly and honestly to the premises you stated. I did not want to be offensive to you in any way, and I'm sorry that you've taken my replies that way, but I also know it would be of no benefit to you to have a dialogue that did not address the issues at all. Though you have said farewell, I hope that you will return to read this comment, and realize that I have spoken from concern, not misery or hostility, and I hope that you will continue to consider the words of Jesus and of all the Bible, for there is substance there that you've not yet found. Despite your denial of the need, I hope you'll search for it.
– CFry
Joe, there has been neither anger nor annoyance in my responses to you, only an attempt to speak directly and honestly to the premises you stated. I did not want to be offensive to you in any way, and I'm sorry that you've taken my replies that way, but I also know it would be of no benefit to you to have a dialogue that did not address the issues at all. Though you have said farewell, I hope that you will return to read this comment, and realize that I have spoken from concern, not misery or hostility, and I hope that you will continue to consider the words of Jesus and of all the Bible, for there is substance there that you've not yet found. Despite your denial of the need, I hope you'll search for it.
As Jesus said, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it."
Matt 13:45-46 NIV
Matt 13:45-46 NIV
– CFry
